I happened to catch an interview between TalkTV’s Julia Hartley-Brewer and Restore Britain’s Charlie Downes the other day whilst out driving in the car.
Many, many people struggle with the concept of what it means to be British, and this Substack nails it, so congratulations David on getting to grips with this thorny issue (and actually what you write here about Britain applies to every sovereign nation).
As an aside, we share a similar ancestry as my mother's ancestors - Grahams - also moved from Lowland Scotland to Ireland. My grandfather studied medicine at Trinity College Dublin, met my grandmother (nee Dunbar) working as nurse in Edinburgh), and he went on to work in the R.A.M.C.
There's something about Julia that reminds me of Piers Morgan.
She doesn't shut up, her questions ard inevitably longer than any answer she tolerates. Before cutting the person off or talking over the guest.
Charlie could and should have been smarter. But hes young, and is great for his age.
Heard Rupert Lowe destroy Nick Robinson yesterday, simply refused to fall for his asinine drive bys and berated the very premise of being asked to appear by Kirsty!
And reminded us all that the BBC said nothing re his grooming gang report.
He is but he is young and like the rest of us will grow in experience and ability over time-the fact that he is starting from a perspective of wishing to salvage our nations is I believe worth our respect. We desperately need a young generation with his motivation. I have said before I think it is too easy to focus on points of disagreement rather than concentrate on forming at least an initial broad consensus,starting with identifying our common enemies-not difficult, the ones whose primary allegiance is to a different country and/or culture and/or faith and who are actively damaging and destroying ours.
I believe we need to agree to co-ordinate an emergency response to save our nations rather than dig too deeply into disagreeing over the ongoing treatment plan, which won't even apply if the patient has been left to die
David my personal experience of the last 18 months is in accordance with Julia's point.
I am white, Anglosaxon (3/4 English, 1/8 Scots, 1/8 German), Catholic, a native English speaker, born in Australia. I am a dual passport holder since becoming naturalised. I am descended from Edward IV (admittedly on the wrong side of the sheets). All four of my grandparents were born in the colony of NSW in the late 19th century. They were born British. My Prussian great-great-grandfather had emigrated to NSW under a scheme set up by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert specifically to develop the wine industry. He was naturalised as British in 1870 and Anglicised his name to Watson.
In 1901 the colonies on the Great South Land federated and became a new country called the Commonwealth of Australia. It was a Dominion of the British Empire and is still a member of the Commonwealth. Until 1948 there was no such thing as an Australian passport. My parents and grandparents would have travelled on a British passport that said they were British subjects. Family members fought in both World Wars, on the British side, including my Dad. My great uncle died at Ypres in 1917.
I emigrated to the UK legally over 20 years ago because my first husband got a head office promotion. I was not entitled to anything as an immigrant. Not even child benefit for my son or a guaranteed state school place for him. I worked and paid taxes from Day 1#. I never broke the law. I became British. I like to think that apart from my accent and a penchant for bright clothes that I am not that different to you. Charlie Downes calls me a foreigner. He believes I should not be called British because I was not born here. He also believes that I have no right to anything provided by the government, inuding the old age pension. He would also stop my friend Ray a former British marine (born in Eire) from holding office as an elected councillor and he would also not be entitled to anything from the government.
It's more about ancestry Pamela. My father was born in Cheshire. My maternal grandparents were from Nantyglo. Due to immigration I was born in South Africa. I have lived in the UK for 39 years. I chose to give up my South African passport so am not a dual national. I regard myself as British due to my ancestry therefore not South African.
A Somalian may have lived in the UK for 30 years, but while he may have a British Passport, he will never be ancestorially British.
Personally, IMO the British government hands out passports like confetti.
That's not what Charlie Downes, Steve Laws and many other Lowe supporters believe. I have been hounded for 18 months and called the most vile names. I hate to tell you this but they would say exactly the same to you. I am not saying Mr Lowe believes this or even a majority of Restore, but there is a very loud group who do.
The problem is that Britain is defined by European treaties that render it an open borders economic zone with no treason laws and no constitution defining its national religion. This was not done by accident.
Whether English, Scottish, Irish,Australian, Kiwi, Canadian etc. It's in your DNA, it's something you cannot describe, it's something you feel . You have it in common with the other's of your tribe, you all sense it, you vibrate it ,your frequency sends it, you just know it . It's a mannerism, a saying, a nod, a look . You also know when it is not .
Wow! This article is really grasping the nettle! I haven’t seen this conversation between JH-B and Downes - if one ever does get a conversation with JH-B! But I agree with David that we, the people of Britain, are not just the sum of our values.
One of the great faults in the establishment of the United Nations was that it failed to recognise tribes. Nations were the defining nature only. Most of the world’s wars since 1945 have been tribal. This is where the UN comes unstuck.
Why weren’t tribes recognised? Because the USA, who founded the UN really, ignores tribe for nationhood for obvious reasons... It was then the popular way to see the path ahead, no more tribes, one nation under God. Thus racism became the Devil. In fact, we now can see that we are hard-wired psychologically to go from family, to tribe, to nation. Scottish nationalism, the Troubles of Northern Ireland, the re-emergence of the Welsh language. Without the threat of war to unite us into nationhood, we slip back comfortably into our tribes.
Those people, mostly foreigners, who see Britain as one big London Airport are deluded. (Unfortunately that’s a lot of our cosmopolitan politicians). It’s not that we can’t absorb small numbers of like-minded allies into the fold of our tribes, whatever their colour and DNA, but they have to be a chosen few to retain trust and cohesion. We do benefit from a few communities who retain the right to be their own tribe to settle along with us, like the Ghurkas, the Sikhs, the Hong Kong Chinese (Chinese New Year in London’s China Town is good fun!) the Poles and, of course, the Jews, but those foreigners who come with a desire to deliberately be “settlers” and push us out will meet with tribal wrath from us all combined.
We all hold different values and religions but there has to be a definite tribal dominance, defended by force if necessary, which defines us. Our laws, art and culture don’t define us. We are the masters of them and they may change. Our tribal bloodstock is the defining feature of what this nature is. A combination of indomitable tribes, who will hold fast to the things they hold dear. And that is mostly the ground beneath our feet because all tribes are deeply territorial and that’s a natural response. Nature cannot be sidelined on a whim. You can row against the tide of Nature all you like, with whatever fancy political theory you like this week but in the end Nature always wins. Our tribes will fight back. It’s going to be tough.
From my Polish point of view, Britishness is something very distinct, far more than values-only approach paints it. It is Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Dickens, Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Orwell, and Agatha Christie. It's the Beatles and opening the whole new universe in music. And it's Anne Askew, Thomas Cranmer, Hugh Latimer, and Nicolas Ridley, and their sacrifice for religious freedom. It is this distinctly British distance to the world and to themselves. And this peculiar four-in-one national composition, having stood for ages, which perhaps makes the Britons more tolerant than other, more unified societies. And the rule over the seas, and colonialism that added a new dimension to the British culture. Britain was also the first to abolish slavery. For me, Britain is also Magna Carta, the first step toward democracy and human rights among the European monarchies. And Thomas Hobbes, and John Stuart Mill. And Adam Smith.
And of course Sherlock Holmes, and the best detective stories :-)
At the same time, it is somehow these very people and events, and phenomena (as well as many others), that have made those liberal values develop in Britain. These values did not appear from thin air, they have their individual genealogy and traits without which they are empty slogans.
So if we suddenly get a load of green-skinned Martians landing here who agree with our "values" and settle here, they will also be as British as us. Why limit it to humans?
British/Britain is a Legal Fiction, it is a passport, WISE people are Britons if both their parents are also WISE, I am English my bloodlines go back over 900 years I am not British, The British have stolen the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish people's rights and are trying to steal our identities with silly arguments like "what it means to be British", When I was growing up in the 70s-80s we never heard these arguments even though the 1948 British Nationality Act was in effect, why do you think that was?
The way nations have been conceptualised since the post-war era is a relatively new invention. Essentially, it is a weak administrative identity that relies on a from of constitutional patriotism similar to what Brewer pointed out, for example, the rule of law and democracy, which is all well and good, but it doesn't quite mean much because it has no foundational layer that is grounded in a nations history, language, its dominant religion, culture, politics, law and just as important, the link we all have as the modern white British people to the ethnogenesis of our ancestors. No white British people, or even white British people as a minority in our own homeland, is a problem that cannot be solved by allowing liberals or anyone else to argue we exist only as administrative identity without calling them out vigorously.
The right must be far more prepared with robust arguments that demolish the hollow "values" identity argument, particularly when defending the position on MSM outlets. Remember, ethnicity is welded to race. You can have black British or Asian British, etc, but they will never be ethnically British. Facts shouldn't be offensive.
Citizenship and ethnicity are all too often conflated as meaning the same thing, which they are certainly not. One belongs to the administrative arm of the state; the other is rooted in a nation by blood, soil and ultimately ancestry.
Excellent points David. I also think it facilitates the common enemies of the indigenous peoples(indigenous whether by ancestry or birth) to argue over moot points since whilst we do so the active takeover of the British Isles and Ireland continues and our enemies benefit from sowing dissent amongst us to divide and rule. One point-if so many of the escapees from the asylum insist that "British values" are the priority why have we got DEI instructing our institutions to prioritise embracing/understanding non-British cultures? The values of these cultures are by the definition of these idiots non-British, therefore surely they agree that these are the ones that must go-not difficult.
I also think that we need to stop focussing on our own subjective experiences to define Britishness-I am of Welsh and Irish descent, English birth and upbringing and have British and Irish passports. I do not expect anyone else to meet any or all of those criteria to be as British as I am. I do however recognise, value and wish to protect my own flock and no sheep's clothing will disguise the wolves among us.
Absolutely 💯 agree with you David. I am Sri Lankan born. Yes I am British. I never changed my names given to me at birth. But I certainly want Britain to be more Indigenous than what it is today.
Our children were born here, but that doesn’t make them English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish.
BTW when I hear Julia on the radio, I turn off or change the channel. I personally think she is off her rocker !!
A very important question because long before this organised invasion the people have been monumentally lied to regarding the Monarchy.
Jeff Taylor ex Royal Navy has traced that, in my opinion via what have read and heard over the last decade, that too many roads lead to the King/Queen.
This says it all with regard to the intelligence community and what it remit might be.
"intelligence community are not subject to democratic accountability, it derives it's authority not from the Prime Minister not from Parliament but from THE CROWN".
All things are interconnected yet are presented as compartmentalised. Very good strategy to fool the people. So is the word "Britain" a tool to cover anything and everything!
Many, many people struggle with the concept of what it means to be British, and this Substack nails it, so congratulations David on getting to grips with this thorny issue (and actually what you write here about Britain applies to every sovereign nation).
As an aside, we share a similar ancestry as my mother's ancestors - Grahams - also moved from Lowland Scotland to Ireland. My grandfather studied medicine at Trinity College Dublin, met my grandmother (nee Dunbar) working as nurse in Edinburgh), and he went on to work in the R.A.M.C.
Concise and clear exposition, David, thank you.
There's something about Julia that reminds me of Piers Morgan.
She doesn't shut up, her questions ard inevitably longer than any answer she tolerates. Before cutting the person off or talking over the guest.
Charlie could and should have been smarter. But hes young, and is great for his age.
Heard Rupert Lowe destroy Nick Robinson yesterday, simply refused to fall for his asinine drive bys and berated the very premise of being asked to appear by Kirsty!
And reminded us all that the BBC said nothing re his grooming gang report.
That's whats needed. Pointing out the charades.
He is but he is young and like the rest of us will grow in experience and ability over time-the fact that he is starting from a perspective of wishing to salvage our nations is I believe worth our respect. We desperately need a young generation with his motivation. I have said before I think it is too easy to focus on points of disagreement rather than concentrate on forming at least an initial broad consensus,starting with identifying our common enemies-not difficult, the ones whose primary allegiance is to a different country and/or culture and/or faith and who are actively damaging and destroying ours.
I believe we need to agree to co-ordinate an emergency response to save our nations rather than dig too deeply into disagreeing over the ongoing treatment plan, which won't even apply if the patient has been left to die
David my personal experience of the last 18 months is in accordance with Julia's point.
I am white, Anglosaxon (3/4 English, 1/8 Scots, 1/8 German), Catholic, a native English speaker, born in Australia. I am a dual passport holder since becoming naturalised. I am descended from Edward IV (admittedly on the wrong side of the sheets). All four of my grandparents were born in the colony of NSW in the late 19th century. They were born British. My Prussian great-great-grandfather had emigrated to NSW under a scheme set up by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert specifically to develop the wine industry. He was naturalised as British in 1870 and Anglicised his name to Watson.
In 1901 the colonies on the Great South Land federated and became a new country called the Commonwealth of Australia. It was a Dominion of the British Empire and is still a member of the Commonwealth. Until 1948 there was no such thing as an Australian passport. My parents and grandparents would have travelled on a British passport that said they were British subjects. Family members fought in both World Wars, on the British side, including my Dad. My great uncle died at Ypres in 1917.
I emigrated to the UK legally over 20 years ago because my first husband got a head office promotion. I was not entitled to anything as an immigrant. Not even child benefit for my son or a guaranteed state school place for him. I worked and paid taxes from Day 1#. I never broke the law. I became British. I like to think that apart from my accent and a penchant for bright clothes that I am not that different to you. Charlie Downes calls me a foreigner. He believes I should not be called British because I was not born here. He also believes that I have no right to anything provided by the government, inuding the old age pension. He would also stop my friend Ray a former British marine (born in Eire) from holding office as an elected councillor and he would also not be entitled to anything from the government.
I'm sorry but I simply cannot agree with that.
I don’t agree with him either. He is clumsy.
It's more than clumsy. It's divisive in my book.
I think I express it better than him!
It's more about ancestry Pamela. My father was born in Cheshire. My maternal grandparents were from Nantyglo. Due to immigration I was born in South Africa. I have lived in the UK for 39 years. I chose to give up my South African passport so am not a dual national. I regard myself as British due to my ancestry therefore not South African.
A Somalian may have lived in the UK for 30 years, but while he may have a British Passport, he will never be ancestorially British.
Personally, IMO the British government hands out passports like confetti.
That's not what Charlie Downes, Steve Laws and many other Lowe supporters believe. I have been hounded for 18 months and called the most vile names. I hate to tell you this but they would say exactly the same to you. I am not saying Mr Lowe believes this or even a majority of Restore, but there is a very loud group who do.
Calling people names is totally unacceptable
The problem is that Britain is defined by European treaties that render it an open borders economic zone with no treason laws and no constitution defining its national religion. This was not done by accident.
Whether English, Scottish, Irish,Australian, Kiwi, Canadian etc. It's in your DNA, it's something you cannot describe, it's something you feel . You have it in common with the other's of your tribe, you all sense it, you vibrate it ,your frequency sends it, you just know it . It's a mannerism, a saying, a nod, a look . You also know when it is not .
Wow! This article is really grasping the nettle! I haven’t seen this conversation between JH-B and Downes - if one ever does get a conversation with JH-B! But I agree with David that we, the people of Britain, are not just the sum of our values.
One of the great faults in the establishment of the United Nations was that it failed to recognise tribes. Nations were the defining nature only. Most of the world’s wars since 1945 have been tribal. This is where the UN comes unstuck.
Why weren’t tribes recognised? Because the USA, who founded the UN really, ignores tribe for nationhood for obvious reasons... It was then the popular way to see the path ahead, no more tribes, one nation under God. Thus racism became the Devil. In fact, we now can see that we are hard-wired psychologically to go from family, to tribe, to nation. Scottish nationalism, the Troubles of Northern Ireland, the re-emergence of the Welsh language. Without the threat of war to unite us into nationhood, we slip back comfortably into our tribes.
Those people, mostly foreigners, who see Britain as one big London Airport are deluded. (Unfortunately that’s a lot of our cosmopolitan politicians). It’s not that we can’t absorb small numbers of like-minded allies into the fold of our tribes, whatever their colour and DNA, but they have to be a chosen few to retain trust and cohesion. We do benefit from a few communities who retain the right to be their own tribe to settle along with us, like the Ghurkas, the Sikhs, the Hong Kong Chinese (Chinese New Year in London’s China Town is good fun!) the Poles and, of course, the Jews, but those foreigners who come with a desire to deliberately be “settlers” and push us out will meet with tribal wrath from us all combined.
We all hold different values and religions but there has to be a definite tribal dominance, defended by force if necessary, which defines us. Our laws, art and culture don’t define us. We are the masters of them and they may change. Our tribal bloodstock is the defining feature of what this nature is. A combination of indomitable tribes, who will hold fast to the things they hold dear. And that is mostly the ground beneath our feet because all tribes are deeply territorial and that’s a natural response. Nature cannot be sidelined on a whim. You can row against the tide of Nature all you like, with whatever fancy political theory you like this week but in the end Nature always wins. Our tribes will fight back. It’s going to be tough.
The UN was not set up by the USA. There was far too much communist influence. Look up the first leader of the General Assembly. Herbert "Doc" Evatt.
From my Polish point of view, Britishness is something very distinct, far more than values-only approach paints it. It is Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Dickens, Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Orwell, and Agatha Christie. It's the Beatles and opening the whole new universe in music. And it's Anne Askew, Thomas Cranmer, Hugh Latimer, and Nicolas Ridley, and their sacrifice for religious freedom. It is this distinctly British distance to the world and to themselves. And this peculiar four-in-one national composition, having stood for ages, which perhaps makes the Britons more tolerant than other, more unified societies. And the rule over the seas, and colonialism that added a new dimension to the British culture. Britain was also the first to abolish slavery. For me, Britain is also Magna Carta, the first step toward democracy and human rights among the European monarchies. And Thomas Hobbes, and John Stuart Mill. And Adam Smith.
And of course Sherlock Holmes, and the best detective stories :-)
At the same time, it is somehow these very people and events, and phenomena (as well as many others), that have made those liberal values develop in Britain. These values did not appear from thin air, they have their individual genealogy and traits without which they are empty slogans.
So if we suddenly get a load of green-skinned Martians landing here who agree with our "values" and settle here, they will also be as British as us. Why limit it to humans?
British/Britain is a Legal Fiction, it is a passport, WISE people are Britons if both their parents are also WISE, I am English my bloodlines go back over 900 years I am not British, The British have stolen the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish people's rights and are trying to steal our identities with silly arguments like "what it means to be British", When I was growing up in the 70s-80s we never heard these arguments even though the 1948 British Nationality Act was in effect, why do you think that was?
The way nations have been conceptualised since the post-war era is a relatively new invention. Essentially, it is a weak administrative identity that relies on a from of constitutional patriotism similar to what Brewer pointed out, for example, the rule of law and democracy, which is all well and good, but it doesn't quite mean much because it has no foundational layer that is grounded in a nations history, language, its dominant religion, culture, politics, law and just as important, the link we all have as the modern white British people to the ethnogenesis of our ancestors. No white British people, or even white British people as a minority in our own homeland, is a problem that cannot be solved by allowing liberals or anyone else to argue we exist only as administrative identity without calling them out vigorously.
The right must be far more prepared with robust arguments that demolish the hollow "values" identity argument, particularly when defending the position on MSM outlets. Remember, ethnicity is welded to race. You can have black British or Asian British, etc, but they will never be ethnically British. Facts shouldn't be offensive.
Citizenship and ethnicity are all too often conflated as meaning the same thing, which they are certainly not. One belongs to the administrative arm of the state; the other is rooted in a nation by blood, soil and ultimately ancestry.
Excellent points David. I also think it facilitates the common enemies of the indigenous peoples(indigenous whether by ancestry or birth) to argue over moot points since whilst we do so the active takeover of the British Isles and Ireland continues and our enemies benefit from sowing dissent amongst us to divide and rule. One point-if so many of the escapees from the asylum insist that "British values" are the priority why have we got DEI instructing our institutions to prioritise embracing/understanding non-British cultures? The values of these cultures are by the definition of these idiots non-British, therefore surely they agree that these are the ones that must go-not difficult.
I also think that we need to stop focussing on our own subjective experiences to define Britishness-I am of Welsh and Irish descent, English birth and upbringing and have British and Irish passports. I do not expect anyone else to meet any or all of those criteria to be as British as I am. I do however recognise, value and wish to protect my own flock and no sheep's clothing will disguise the wolves among us.
Thx Julia
Absolutely 💯 agree with you David. I am Sri Lankan born. Yes I am British. I never changed my names given to me at birth. But I certainly want Britain to be more Indigenous than what it is today.
Our children were born here, but that doesn’t make them English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish.
BTW when I hear Julia on the radio, I turn off or change the channel. I personally think she is off her rocker !!
Julia is usually unlistenable 🤣
I don’t object to her personally. She was right in my view.
I can never forgive her for her deplorable endorsement of Covid jabs! That said, met her once and she was charming
Perhaps the jabs were too effective on her ?
💯 effective 🤣
I took 3 jabs and thought it was the right thing to do at the time. Most people I knew did. My friend is still taking them.
Understand. I refused them and avoid all such big pharma poisons!
I do now, but I wasn't 'awake' at the time.
Fully understand!
We used to be called English. We have now been 'watered down' to British. The English are fast being outnumbered and replaced by mongrels.
A very important question because long before this organised invasion the people have been monumentally lied to regarding the Monarchy.
Jeff Taylor ex Royal Navy has traced that, in my opinion via what have read and heard over the last decade, that too many roads lead to the King/Queen.
This says it all with regard to the intelligence community and what it remit might be.
https://youtu.be/M5tAdkld0QY?si=gRRgGMc8w9-azAoW
"intelligence community are not subject to democratic accountability, it derives it's authority not from the Prime Minister not from Parliament but from THE CROWN".
All things are interconnected yet are presented as compartmentalised. Very good strategy to fool the people. So is the word "Britain" a tool to cover anything and everything!